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NEIL ARMSTRONG: That's one small step for a man.

KEITH FLAMER: Welcome to another session of Free Speech with CR. And my name is Keith Flamer, and I am here with my co-host Molly Blakemore.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Hi, I'm Molly Blakemore, marketing director for College of the Redwoods. And I'm here with our Veterans Center coordinator, Matt Gilliland.

MATTHEW GILLILAND: Hi my name is Matt Gilliland. I am the program coordinator for Veterans and Military Family Student Services. I also served four years in the Marine Corps from 2003 to 2007. I served two tours in Iraq and one tour on the 31st MEU to Okinawa.

MARLIA LUZIER: I am Marlia Luzier. I work in the student enrollment services as admissions and records processing, and I was also enlisted for four years in the Marine Corps from 2017 to 2021. And I was not deployed all stateside Garrison.

KEITH FLAMER: Fantastic. Thank you very, very much for being with us today. So here's my first question. So you were both active duty. So what was it like making that transition from the service to education? What was that transition like for you?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: I'll go first. So for me, I think one of the most overwhelming things was just the amount of choice that I had available to me. I went from an environment where I was told where to be, when to be there, and then how to do whatever I was doing when I got there, to what do you want to do? And that's kind of a paralyzing question. It was for me at that time.

I think one of the other things that really affected me at that time is I had recently had a baby. And so my sense of get this done, get this done, get back to work was a big motivating factor, stressor, probably both at different times.

KEITH FLAMER: How about you, Marlia?

MARLIA LUZIER: It was pretty similar. Mine was a lot of similar things in terms of be there when you had a set schedule. You knew what you were doing probably a week or two out. And then I had nothing to do for a couple months. And it threw me not off the deep end, but it was a transition.

And academia was the way to build that community back because a lot of that transitional problem was because I had a loss of community and coworkers that were friends as well were now gone because it wasn't relatable. I was now in the civilian sector. And by going to college and having the Veterans Resource Center when I moved on to academia, it helped me rebuild that in a way that was not only healthy, but easier.

KEITH FLAMER: And I'm really curious about what it was like for you both in the classroom? When you went from boot camp to active duty, and you're in the classroom with people that don't have the same level of experience that you have. So what was it trying to build a community with students that you may not have very much in common with?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: I remember being really mad at people coming into a room late. It was tough. It was, like, what? Oh, now I'm late for everything. So I made that full transition. But I think also, I didn't really feel like I fit in. There are oftentimes senses of I don't belong here, as well as hard to relate with folks who-- especially because I joined the military late also.

KEITH FLAMER: So how old were you when you joined?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: I was 23 when I joined, so I was 27 years old when I got out. And so being in a classroom with 18 and 19-year-olds was-- I guess I didn't really know how to even talk to folks. So I just was there for the material to do my work and go home.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Did you not feel like you belonged because of your age, or was it because of your military background or your point of view? Or was it just imposter syndrome, like you're not really a student? Why was it a feeling of not belonging?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: I guess because of that, that sense of I'm here to accomplish this thing to get back to work to help support my family. I wasn't necessarily trying to find myself, which I think is a more typical experience for a college student. And then also, I think just the drive and the discipline and I'm here and I'm focused, and I'm doing these things and I didn't care about the social aspect of.

KEITH FLAMER: Well, how about for you? How was that transition?

MARLIA LUZIER: Kind of similar. Mine's a little bit more fresh. So I had a lot more emotions tied to it, I suppose you could say.

KEITH FLAMER: Emotions how? What does that mean?

MARLIA LUZIER: I had a lot of animosity towards my peers in some areas, for instance, them coming in late, then not having respect for the instructor, which in my opinion is a hierarchy thing. Like you have rank, the instructor is a higher rank essentially. And so it was just do you not respect the instructor? They are putting their time here. They're getting paid to do this, yes, but you are also here to learn. And I had animosity building that way.

And then I had the drive, as he mentioned, to get my things done. I arrived on time, often early. I stayed late if the instructor needed assistance doing something, or just putting my 110% out of 100. And a lot of students would take advantage of the instructor's generosity with late work or midterms or what have you.

I mean, I'm not to sound very crass, but a Sally sob story in a way. And it's like things do happen, but I didn't have that emotional awareness to understand that at the time because I had transitioned from something that not really cared about your emotions. You got the thing done in the Marine Corps. So there was that.

And then also, the instructors recognized that you are older, that you have a structure to you, and so they are much more likely to, hey, Marlia, you're on this field trip. Will you please help me keep a head count or keep track? And I'd be the last one at the walk just to make sure that no one got--

KEITH FLAMER: Struggled.

MARLIA LUZIER: Exactly.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: So you were working?

MARLIA LUZIER: I felt like I was a TA sometimes.

MATTHEW GILLILAND: Really. Extra duties do get assigned.

MARLIA LUZIER: Yes, extra duties were very much assigned. And it was different with each course. So I was in forestry is what I received my associate's in here.

KEITH FLAMER: Which is where I first met you in forestry class.

MARLIA LUZIER: Yes, sir. Associate's degree in forestry. The dynamic forestry is a lot different than what the dynamic is for regular general education courses like English.

KEITH FLAMER: Explain that. What do you mean by that?

MARLIA LUZIER: Well, in some coursework, I would receive-- not coursework, in some courses, I would receive, oh, like forestry, the instructor would be more-- and the students would also be typically more open, like, oh, cool, you were in the Marine Corps, or you were this or that. And then in other courses, they would think negatively about the military and the policies that are assigned.

But being in the military, we all know, or a majority of us at this table know, that you just do as you're told. It's not you dictating. You signed up and you just do as you're told by whoever's above you. And that includes the president and everyone else. It doesn't matter what you agree with or who you voted for.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Do you feel that the instructors have that same mentality, or was it more your classmates?

MARLIA LUZIER: I think it was the instructors as well. I mean, there's a lot of offhanded things, comments people make and you take note of it. It might not be outright, but a majority of the times it is obvious.

KEITH FLAMER: Can you share what some of those comments were?

MARLIA LUZIER: It would be more along the lines of, and I hear it even today at work in times right now, or it's very stressful with the way things are going, or we don't know what's going to happen right now.

KEITH FLAMER: So it's code for something else is what you mean.

MARLIA LUZIER: Exactly. It's just code.

KEITH FLAMER: Interesting.

MARLIA LUZIER: And it was very much, like, OK, when I'm writing this essay for my political science course, I need to write it in a way that is appropriate for the instructor to not give me a bad grade because our opinions don't align. And I did as such because I wanted a good grade.

KEITH FLAMER: So then you did censor your own schoolwork because you didn't know how they would come across to the instructor.

MARLIA LUZIER: Correct. I mean--

MATTHEW GILLILAND: That's typical.

KEITH FLAMER: Is that typical of that students see that?

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: That's what I was going to ask. So are you hearing these same stories from vets that are coming in to you even now?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: Yes, definitely. And it's something that I do remember experiencing as well. Like, OK, we're not going to write that. We're going to start over. And then yes, I do experience that with students now and it's often really tricky to give them advice and that they are here to explore themselves and their ideas and strengthen their ability to critically think.

And you're not wrong for being aware of that. And you're going to have to play your cards appropriately when doing these assignments because--

MARLIA LUZIER: Not everyone has your opinion that things should be unbiased.

MATTHEW GILLILAND: Yeah. And sometimes it's hard to learn what a rubric is and then follow it and then tailor what you're writing so that it can't be utilized against you, like, the assessment structure. It's challenging.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: As a student, you didn't feel like it was helpful to talk to instructor when you felt this way and then also now is that something that you would not advise a veteran student to try?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: So I do tell students to talk with their instructors. My biggest-- the thing I harp on most is to make sure that they're in a good emotional place so that they're not the one going in and being combative. That's not going to do anybody any good. But yes, approaching an instructor and developing a relationship with faculty is paramount. You have to do it. And even if it doesn't go well and you still can't find common ground, at least now you know where your boundaries are for things that you can write about or can express in class.

KEITH FLAMER: Great.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Well, I was just going to say that-- and at the very least at least, maybe some instructors will realize their own bias if you're talking to them about it. Maybe now especially when they're being asked to look at their own bias more in the classroom.

KEITH FLAMER: Is that something they're being asked to do?

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Well, I think kind of in this coded way that you're talking about. We are asking them to be aware of that with the anti-DEI stuff and the pushback against woke-isms that they probably are being more reflexive. But I don't know because I'm not a student. So this is interesting.

KEITH FLAMER: You grab a point of that there are code languages that you hear. And I'm curious, in today's world where we see that tension in America, and you being former Marines, how do you feel about what's going on in the country? And how do you deal with it knowing that you served, and then you see all this discord? And how do you bridge that gap, especially internally, but also for fellow vets that come into the center?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: Now, I realize that that's a hard question. Yeah. So I guess how I internally perceive what I'm seeing in the news and on media and things of that nature is I'm really kind of disappointed that we're not talking anymore. We're not talking to people. We're talking at people. There's a big stress on having your facts straight so that you can combat somebody in those public spaces.

And there's no space-- there seems to be a lack of space to wrestle with issues with somebody who might have an opposing opinion because for me, challenging what I think about something is really vulnerable. And there's only a select few people that I trust enough to--

KEITH FLAMER: To have a conversation with?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: And challenge what I'm thinking, and not feel like it's going to get used against me in some other way because I'm not trying to necessarily win a conversation. I'm trying to honestly, at this point, find a path like where's a pathway to a solution. Not even the solution itself, but can we find the pathway to one or a pathway to explore to one. And it doesn't seem-- it doesn't seem safe to explore that with very many folks.

So when I'm working with students, luckily I do have that mission mindset of I work for them. So I don't care what they think. I'm here to solve problems that will facilitate their success here and beyond. It doesn't register to me to try to convince somebody that I think the way that they think is incorrect. I don't think it's appropriate in my role to express that to anybody.

My job is to let them know that I'm here to work through problems with them and not-- it is hard sometimes to not wrestle with issues because you get asked your opinion, like, what do you think about this? And it's hard to--

MARLIA LUZIER: I mean, especially when it comes to what is happening with the National Guard. What's happening with-- previously we both got asked, I know I did, and I'm fairly certain you did about the female military standards for certain MOSs.

KEITH FLAMER: You mean someone came out and asked you that question?

MARLIA LUZIER: From our workplace, which is good. It's healthy. I encourage it because it did open up a conversation. I was asked, well, what are your opinions on the restrictions for the physical readiness of certain combat roles? And my answer was if I can't carry you out because I didn't meet those physical requirements, how would that person sibling feel? Because I made it in but I couldn't do the thing that was required of me.

And they're, like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But on the surface level, people are seeing it as you're cutting females from these positions, and it's, like, no, it's not necessarily that, yes, it does limit what we can do, but there are limitations that some of us do have and some of us don't. Some of us can do those tasks. It's a requirement.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Do you feel like there's a lot of scrutiny on the military right now?

MARLIA LUZIER: Yeah, I think so.

KEITH FLAMER: Can you talk about why you think that scrutiny is there?

MARLIA LUZIER: I mean, I think that scrutiny is there partially because they view the military as a tool for the presidency to utilize, which it is to an extent. However, I do think that not ostracizing but pigeonholing a whole subset of individuals that once were and are currently or looking to be is not beneficial--

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Enlisted you mean?

MARLIA LUZIER: Enlisted and also officer morale.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Just joined the military.

MARLIA LUZIER: Exactly. Like, you see veterans and they're, like, well, what do you feel about the National Guard? It's like, well, I can feel a lot of things about it, but unfortunately, what is happening is happening. I can't change anything. The same with those who are in the military, in the National Guard doing that. They are given orders and they are to follow those through unless it was a combat role and you have a moral or religious obligation to not.

KEITH FLAMER: A moral or--

MARLIA LUZIER: Religious obligation.

KEITH FLAMER: To not follow an order?

MARLIA LUZIER: Yes.

KEITH FLAMER: Do you think the Constitution plays--

MARLIA LUZIER: I mean, there is a conscientious objections opportunity that people have in the military. And I mean, we saw not quite a conscientious objection when it came to the COVID vaccination, but we had many individuals who removed themselves from the military, or were removed rather, because they did not readily take the COVID vaccination while they were enlisted and they were removed from those positions.

And I mean, ideally, you wouldn't have to be brought with that decision. But some people don't quite understand that these National Guard deploying is one of those crossroads, like, you are just having to follow your orders and these individuals are just doing their job. So I don't know if that makes sense.

KEITH FLAMER: No, actually it does make a lot of sense.

Matt, I'm going to go back to a statement you made in order to follow up a little bit, is that you described extremely well what Molly and I have talked about is that gap between people and how do we bridge that gap between people. And then you did articulate extremely well that we just have lost the ability to listen, and we've lost the ability to communicate with each other instead of at each other.

How do you think we should solve that in this institution? What do you think we should do, and how do you think we should go about doing it? Because I think everyone would love to be able to solve the problem to be able to talk with. But I don't know if people know how to do that anymore. How do you think we should do it?

MATTHEW GILLILAND: I don't think that mandating that people do that is a viable solution, or I don't-- man, that's a tough question. To listen to people who you disagree with and to try to find common ground takes humility. And so I don't know how to instill humility in people or an institution in an effective way.

But I do think that if we're going to get there, you have to have some humility and not want to protect yourself, which then takes trust in that the person that you're wrestling over an issue with is not going to use your stance against you in another way. There has to, I guess, as an institution, I think, making the amends necessary so that folks trust us in a way that they're willing to be vulnerable so then we can wrestle through different issues.

KEITH FLAMER: Marlia, what do you think?

MARLIA LUZIER: Mine is less of the people aspect of that question and more of like the environment. For instance, if I'm about to have a tense conversation with somebody that I care about or I just want to have a tense conversation, I don't want to do it at their home or at my home. I want to do it in a neutral place.

So if I'm trying to have those conversations in an instructor's classroom that may or may not have ramifications or retaliation in form of my grade or where the individual has ownership of the space, I suppose you could say or authority, it helps to have that discussion because there is no fear of retaliation. There is no this is my territory. This is my space. I feel like I need to defend it, or that I'm in someone else's space and I feel unsteady on off ground. How can you find a common ground if you're not--

KEITH FLAMER: Feel unsafe.

MARLIA LUZIER: Yeah.

KEITH FLAMER: OK. Thank you.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: Yeah. I think these are really challenging questions that everybody's trying to get to the bottom of right now is how did we get here where we don't listen to each other anymore and how do we get past that. And I think Matt hit on it. It's about community and trusting the people that you're working and living with and in a community with. And that seems to be challenging right now to wrap it up.

KEITH FLAMER: I want to thank you both for being with Molly and I today. I learned a lot. So thank you very much and hopefully that you also did enjoy the conversation as much as Molly and I did.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: You've been listening to Free Speech with CR I'm Molly Blakemore.

KEITH FLAMER: And I'm Keith Flamer.

MOLLY BLAKEMORE: And thank you for joining us, and we will see you next month.

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